Full_Monte
Well-known member
On my last trip, I noticed that a couple of my Apex trolled upside down when I pre-tested them next to the boat. Is this a design flaw, or something I did wrong?
Apex trolls upside down!
- Thread starter Full_Monte
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Bduck
Flaming Gorge Forum MODERATOR
I have noticed the same thing Monte. Couldn't tell you if it was a flaw or not. I was trying mine out for Kokes at the Gorge last month and all I caught was either rainbows or lakers. I guess they work but didn't get what I targeted for.
SilverBullets
Super Moderator
What size Apex, what speed, and how much bait? Personally, If I see that the action looks erratic with a roll thrown in every now and then, I send it down. As long as it moves crazy that's what gets their attention. In my opinion, if it's running upside-down without the required movement you might try a faster speed. These lures have the fish attracting color design on the top, and the bottom on most is chrome. Since kokes supposedly come in from below, if the lure ran right-side up all the time the attracting color scheme on top would never be seen. That;s why it's important to have them run erratic and roll once in a while.
Full_Monte
Well-known member
I was running the 1.5 inch apexes. Noticed this behavior on two of them.
Nothing fancy...two gamakatsus, two pieces of corn on the front hook. It seemed like the lure was out of balance. Speed .9 to 1.8mph on the GPS. How do you know if it rolls? If it doesn't roll, how do you make it roll? My regular apexes that wiggle seem to just do that...wiggle. Can't say I've ever seen one roll.
Nothing fancy...two gamakatsus, two pieces of corn on the front hook. It seemed like the lure was out of balance. Speed .9 to 1.8mph on the GPS. How do you know if it rolls? If it doesn't roll, how do you make it roll? My regular apexes that wiggle seem to just do that...wiggle. Can't say I've ever seen one roll.
HiTechKoke
Well-known member
I like SB's assessment on the Apex's when it comes to being erratic and they will go here and there depending on a lot of factors like Speed, balance of lure with the corn etc. Take a look at this Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfTCQNKfQg
which is the Man vs. Kokanee from New Melones. Rounds 2 and 4 are Apex scenes at the lure level. Apex's did well that day.
In round two my speed was probably 1.3 to 1.4 and then towards the end of that round you can see I slowed as the dodger came into view, lure set also dropped and Apex went into a tight wiggle. As I sped up and the fish came upon it and it got a bit more erratic it bit the lure. That is not to say there is one speed they will work either as at Pardee and late season if you are not getting bit then try slowing way down, .5 to 1MPH so they spend more time in the fish's face when they are schooled and lazy and you'll get a very tight slow wiggle. In Round 4 of that video the action is more erratic and the fish got aggressive over it.
This was a Gold or Chrome Apex - I forget which but it made it very easy to see with the camera and certainly from a distance by the fish too. So I don't get too hung up on the Apex action as it is too hard to control precisely but instead let them do their thing and if not getting bit just rotate it out as it always seems certain Apex's get favored on the bite and I have to think that particular action on that lure is probably contributing to it as much as any color scheme. I'm by no means an Apex expert but seeing them at lure level with fish reactions has boosted my confidence in using them for sure.
Kevin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfTCQNKfQg
which is the Man vs. Kokanee from New Melones. Rounds 2 and 4 are Apex scenes at the lure level. Apex's did well that day.
In round two my speed was probably 1.3 to 1.4 and then towards the end of that round you can see I slowed as the dodger came into view, lure set also dropped and Apex went into a tight wiggle. As I sped up and the fish came upon it and it got a bit more erratic it bit the lure. That is not to say there is one speed they will work either as at Pardee and late season if you are not getting bit then try slowing way down, .5 to 1MPH so they spend more time in the fish's face when they are schooled and lazy and you'll get a very tight slow wiggle. In Round 4 of that video the action is more erratic and the fish got aggressive over it.
This was a Gold or Chrome Apex - I forget which but it made it very easy to see with the camera and certainly from a distance by the fish too. So I don't get too hung up on the Apex action as it is too hard to control precisely but instead let them do their thing and if not getting bit just rotate it out as it always seems certain Apex's get favored on the bite and I have to think that particular action on that lure is probably contributing to it as much as any color scheme. I'm by no means an Apex expert but seeing them at lure level with fish reactions has boosted my confidence in using them for sure.
Kevin
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HiTechKoke
Well-known member
I forgot to mention I always like to take the Apex's and re-tie them with beads and my own hooks and add more separation between the hooks.... but that's just me.
SilverBullets
Super Moderator
I've also found that the bites happen alot when the action changes with speed adjustments and turns. When you check the action along side the boat, change your speed and generally they start to roll when you speed up. Slow back down to where the action is erratic and not rolling constantly...once in a while is ok. Like HTK mentioned, it's the crazy erratic action that drives em nuts. Find a speed where the action looks pretty good, and while trolling try to vary your speed up and down from there. Don't think they should run like a flatfish, Apex's do better going sideways, upside-down, and right-side up. I change out the line to 8lb Maxima, IMHO it lets the lure dance better at slower speeds. HiTech is right about the action being important...I've witnessed a definite bite preference where everything on each side of the boat was EXACTY the same (speed, scent, color, leader length, dodgers, depth)... only difference was one was made by Protroll, the other Hotspot (both customized the exact same way). The action is very close between them, but there is a slight difference and some days depending on your speed they might prefer one over the other... the color being the same didn't seem to matter, they keyed in on the action of one lure over the other.
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Full_Monte
Well-known member
I sure get an education from you guys. It seems like I need to be more detailed about calibrating boat speed against the action of the lure. I have changed my fishing methods a lot due to your input. I guess I need to change them more. Thanks for the help!
HiTechKoke
Well-known member
Hey Monte - Take it with a grain of salt as I never say no to anything related to Kokanee fishing and it just takes some on the water experiences to help tie it all the together. Once you catch a fish on certain setup and then another and then another that's when I start looking at that lure and thinking there must be something about that combo for that specific day and those conditions. Listening to all of us could lead to pocketbook insanity. 
Fallriverguy
Well-known member
I have some that do tend to roll over more than others. I try to let the fish decide what they like. I have one that seems to roll more but still catches fish. I would think they they should all have pretty much the same action coming from the same mold, but each one seems to have its own unique action. It is possible that each mold has a certain life span before it has to be replaced.
I had one Orange Apex that caught a lot of fish until I finally lost it. I have yet to find another orange one that fishes as well as that one did.
I had one Orange Apex that caught a lot of fish until I finally lost it. I have yet to find another orange one that fishes as well as that one did.
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DLM
Oregon Forum MODERATOR
A few variables come to mind with an apex, and of course I will yield completely to Mr. Apex, aka Silver Bullets.
1. Line weight, I use 8#
2. What you use between the hooks and the lure for set back, factory spacer, beads or bobber stopper. I use bobber stoppers for their adjustability.
3. Hooks, I use two drop shot #4.
I don't use an apex as much as others do but it is my go to if hoochies are not working or when the wind forces me into a faster trolling speed. I have not noticed one apex acting differently than other apex's.
1. Line weight, I use 8#
2. What you use between the hooks and the lure for set back, factory spacer, beads or bobber stopper. I use bobber stoppers for their adjustability.
3. Hooks, I use two drop shot #4.
I don't use an apex as much as others do but it is my go to if hoochies are not working or when the wind forces me into a faster trolling speed. I have not noticed one apex acting differently than other apex's.
Full_Monte
Well-known member
Listening to all of us could lead to pocketbook insanity.
It already has lead to pocketbook insanity. A few tackle mfgrs. are smiling all the way to the bank!
SilverBullets
Super Moderator
From what I've seen alot of the variances with these lures has to do with the way the hooks are positioned, and when corn is added it alters the movement. I really don't worry too much about the lure getting dragged around right-side up, upside down, or sideways. The main thing is you want a good erratic action. Like dlm mentioned, going to a lighter weight line helps at slower speeds for lures with their own action, just like going to a heavier weight line for lures with no action of their own helps. The way I personally tie my double hooks is with them both parallel to each other, but after a few fish have their say they end up pointing every which way. As FRG stated, some days they might prefer them with a different look and action, so I don't get too hung up on what direction the hooks end up pointing. I change out the plastic glow spacer between the lure and the hook to a few 4-5mm glow beads, seems to help give the hooks and corn added movement from the lure, in addition to useing the bobber stops dlm mentioned.
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Lip Ripper
Well-known member
I use a apex a lot and I have had the best luck using a small split shot right behind the apex. This keeps the apex from going back to the hooks. I run my hooks 2 to 2-1/2'' behind the apex with only corn on the very back hook. Have you ever flew a kite with a short tail, it flips over the apex is the same way. With the hooks out behind it really darts through the water, the little sinker holds the back down,give it a try. I also use a small dodger that I bend the front and back a lot more than the factory bend this really helps whip the apex around also. thumbsup
HiTechKoke
Well-known member
I like the comment FRG made and others are relating to about Apex's can have a personality with a number of variables and you have a lot of options with them. The size of the blade I have found can make a difference (likely due to the counter balance of the hooks and corn). So this season is the first time I gained confidence in the Apex and I became partial to the smaller 1.0 Hot Spot series as opposed to the 1.5 blades but that's just me. On several trips this year I had the one lure / one rod syndrome with an apex so naturally I got opinionated towards it when it caught fish.
Cool tip on the split shot!
Cool tip on the split shot!
Full_Monte
Well-known member
I also like the lead shot idea. I bet the apex would troll right side up with that little bit of weight. I have tried moving the hooks back behind the apex a couple inches. It didn't make much difference on that day...the fish just weren't biting.
