Is it the ling?

[Propnut69]

As someone that has been lucky enough to have fished the gorge for the last 20 years.I definelty feel that the ling, have made a negative impact on the kokanee population. With that said,I do not believe that they are totally to blame for the decline of the kokes. I do believe that the ling have impacted the gorge as a whole.I think that both the smallmouth bass,and the kokes in the gorge are suffering because of the ling. As Ash pointed out earlier,the crawdads numbers are down . . This will create a domino affect on the food chain for the gorge. Just look at how fast the ling have gotten so big.

We all know that the high water this year have made a difference in catch rates. But that is just mother nature at work,and only a short term problem. Sooner or later the water level with return back to normal. I must say that it has been a challenge to go out and have the same kind of days I had last year. It has been a learning experience to say the least. I do think that with the river having a good "flush" this year ,it will help to improve the up stream spawn.

Another thing that I think has impacted the kokes,it the amount of pressure . The popularity of the gorge as a "trophy kokanee fishery" has really taken off in the last 3-4 years. Common sense tells me that the more fishermen, fishing for kokes,the less that survive to spawn. I even seen a boat from Florida up here a couple weeks ago.

With the ling being the eggs suckers that they are .I feel that we will definelty see a decline of the "in lake " spawn. Here is where I see the ling doing the most damage to the koke fishery. Now that the ling are all the way through the lake,no kokanee spawning bed is safe. I know the Wyo G&F and the Utah DWR are taking steps to try and gain some kind of control over the ling. Will it makes any difference,only time will tell. We as koke fisherman need to tell as many people as we can,about how the ling are affecting the gorge.

 

[SuperD]

If the Gorge Koke population declines, does anyone see that translating into fewer but bigger fish? i.e. a record caught this year?

 

[jacksonlaker]

What percentage is the "natural spawn " of the Koke population. I thought it is very low, like 10%. I asked the Game and Fish Biologist here in Jackson about the burbot. He said he did his thesis on Kokanee and could not find an instance where Burbot had affected Kokanee. Are they good for the fisherie ??? Hell no, I say kill 'em all, but I could not find anything on the internet where introduced Burbot had any effect. We do not need any more predators in the Gorge, so I'm not sure if Tiger Trout are the answer. maybe stocking crayfish ???? Then all the fish would have something to eat !!

 

[FISH]

What percentage is the "natural spawn " of the Koke population. I thought it is very low, like 10%. I asked the Game and Fish Biologist here in Jackson about the burbot. He said he did his thesis on Kokanee and could not find an instance where Burbot had affected Kokanee. Are they good for the fisherie ??? Hell no, I say kill 'em all, but I could not find anything on the internet where introduced Burbot had any effect. We do not need any more predators in the Gorge, so I'm not sure if Tiger Trout are the answer. maybe stocking crayfish ???? Then all the fish would have something to eat !!

I tell you what you and your source come down in another month and get in my boat and lets see what his thesis is after he is cleaning all the eggs out of the bottom of my boat or is eating the spawn beds out of eggs not an effect then come see the small kokes in feb that are in the bellys of the bigger ling ya he needs to do his thesis on the gorge now or have him call my buddy in gr craig and tell him that thay dont have an effect on the kokes and i will show him different i would bet that the worst thing to happen to the gorge is just starting to happen i hope iam totaly in left field but until some one get's out there and proves me different no biologist that isnt seeing the effects can tell me shit about my back yard.and kokes dont eat crawfish so i dont think that is the problem just my uneducted dumb ass opinion. but we are only scratching the surfice of whats to come.give it another 10yr when the lake trout numbers plumit from the ling eating there eggs just call my buddy kyle with conquest and ask his opinion if mine dont mean thay are haveing an effect that is one thing that pisses me off dont sit behind a desk and asumme get out and see it with your own eyes. a thesis dont mean jack till its a fact jack.i would really like to see waht bodys of water this thesis was taken from it wasnt FG.

 

[Dorado]

I tell you what you and your source come down in another month and get in my boat and lets see what his thesis is after he is cleaning all the eggs out of the bottom of my boat or is eating the spawn beds out of eggs not an effect then come see the small kokes in feb that are in the bellys of the bigger ling ya he needs to do his thesis on the gorge now or have him call my buddy in gr craig and tell him that thay dont have an effect on the kokes and i will show him different i would bet that the worst thing to happen to the gorge is just starting to happen i hope iam totaly in left field but until some one get's out there and proves me different no biologist that isnt seeing the effects can tell me shit about my back yard.and kokes dont eat crawfish so i dont think that is the problem just my uneducted dumb ass opinion. but we are only scratching the surfice of whats to come.give it another 10yr when the lake trout numbers plumit from the ling eating there eggs just call my buddy kyle with conquest and ask his opinion if mine dont mean thay are haveing an effect that is one thing that pisses me off dont sit behind a desk and asumme get out and see it with your own eyes. a thesis dont mean jack till its a fact jack.i would really like to see waht bodys of water this thesis was taken from it wasnt FG.

Really? I think maybe you should think before you start attacking people without getting all the facts.

I know Rob, and he is a down to earth, no BS kind guy. He did his MS thesis on kokanee in Flaming Gorge, but it was back in the early 1990's, so obviously the fishery has changed since then. He knows and loves FG.

If you read what he told jacksonlaker, he said he was not aware of a case where burbot affected kokanee. He was not saying that they wouldn't have an effect, but simply that he was not aware of a case where this has happened. I do not think anyone, biologist or avid FG angler can say with any accuracy what effect burbot are going to have.

As far as the "must keep" regulation, I heard that this was discussed, but the wardens shot this down. The fear was that if you kept burbot and threw them out without eating them you would be guilty of "wanton waste" of a game fish. When they tried to write in an exception the regulations got really messy and they nixed it....

 

[Stanson]

Ok Guys!!! Enough talk it's time for action . The only way you will control the population of Burbot is to kill them, and that is done two or three ways
first you can poison the lake!!I don't think that would work for a Lake like Flaming Gorge They tried that in Ca. it's just two big and the burbot would be the only fish not to be killed.

You can fish for them without a license, out of states fisherman would not need a license to take burbot and that would have to be in both Ut,and WY. and all of the people that benefit from the Kokanee fisheries would put up money for derbys in the winter months!! thats when Burbot fishing is at it's best. Now I mean the people that rely on the business brought on by the Kokanee fisheries. I'm sure they will get there money back.
so the business people of Flaming Gorge need to get this going if you have several derbys in the winter months and you get a thousand's of fisherman fishing for those Burbot you will control them there is no way you are going to get rid of them all together.

The Only way to get rid of them is to control them and that may be though research into there reproduction and that would take a lot of money and time you might be able to that through research with the Derbies to control them.. until they figure out a way to control them through reproduction process.. maybe feed them birth control pills some how they like to eat fish eggs maybe they could figure a way to do that but that might impact other fish may not be a good Idea..

so talk is cheep its time for action get Wyoming FG to change there ways about Burbot, put a no limit and do not release live Burbot back into the lake and both States would not require a license to fish for them. there is a ton of Information on Burbot fishing just Google Burbot fishing you will be informed about how to catch them and they are like the ocean Ling Cob they are Eat-en Machines, they will consume them selves

Put a bounty on the Burbot!!! you get two dollars for every tail.... and the derby would pay the winner of the most burbot caught for derby you could charge an entry fee.... to help out funding the pot for them but you need to make that pot wroth going after I would say 5,000 or more.... might be a good start.

The local business as the most to lose

SK

 

[Ryno]

All of you are right. Burbot are definitely going to have an impact on the fishery in FGR, whether it's kokanee, smallmouth, lake trout, and/or rainbows. When a new species is introduced, something is going to have to "make room", and currently burbot are doing the pushing.

As indicated, burbot have been observed (through angling and research), utilizing lake trout and kokanee spawn. That means they have the potential to impact kokanee recruitment, from step one. Previous research completed in the reservoir has shown that 95% of the kokanee population is a result of in-reservoir spawning. Those in-reservoir spawning areas are now occupied by burbot. The Green River and Sheep Creek spawning runs have very little input to the overall population, so any impact to the in-reservoir spawning can surely have serious impacts to the kokanee fishery. Both UDWR and WYGF are supplementing the kokanee population by stocking fish. This year almost 1.4 million kokanee fry were stocked into FGR, from the dam all the way up to Firehole.

Burbot have also been observed through angling (by myself and others on this forum), preying on kokanee up to about 14-inches. Although it may be limited, that's also a concern. Most of you also know that the preferred forage of lake trout in the reservoir is kokanee. Research has also shown lake trout are utilizing kokanee up to about 14 inches. What that means is kokanee are fighting predation from a lot of different directions. That's why the lake trout and burbot limit is so liberal on FGR. Anglers can help by harvesting limits of these predators, but yes it will probably take more than that.

Currently, UDWR has "no limit, must kill" on burbot. WYGF has "no limit". Unfortunately, burbot are native to Wyoming and still considered a sportfish. From my understanding, the "must kill" for burbot is regulation that would have to be changed by going through their state's legislative process. This is difficult because they are treating burbot in two different ways based on the drainage where they are being managed.

A lot of anglers have declared personal war on burbot and hopefully it has an effect. As members that read bigfishtackle.com last winter may recall, there was a pretty reduced catch rate for burbot in January near Lost Dog. I like to think this was a result of the number of anglers harvesting burbot from the Lost Dog area. Burbot are on the decline in a lot of their native range, and some of the blame is attributed to angler exploitation. So it's possible.....

Tiger trout were stocked last year by UDWR from Antelope Flat down to Cedar Springs as a possible biological control for burbot. They were excess fingerlings, only about 70K were stocked, and as far as I know no one has seen a return via sampling or angling. Brown trout have historically been stocked by WYGF in the upper reservoir but none have been observed utilizing burbot. Some anglers have reported seeing a some cases of burbot in smallmouth and lake trout stomachs, and netting on Antelope Flat this spring showed a burbot in a lake trout stomach. Burbot also show up in burbot stomachs, which is nice to see.

Research performed on one of the major kokanee spawning areas this spring, was designed to see if burbot were utilizing kokanee fry as they emerge from the redds. No fry predation was observed (although it's still possible), but the burbot catch rates in the nets were amazing. After 5 weeks of netting the burbot catch rate was basically flat line. Nets were set in the same locations, at the same times, for over a month, and almost 40 burbot were caught each week. There was little or no depletion, which would indicate removal via netting would be difficult and costly.

After seeing the turnout for the Burbot Bash put on bigfishtackle.com last year, angler response to the fight against burbot is impressive. A bounty may be difficult to fund, especially with the current economic status, but a tournament could be an opportunity to make an impact. It's obvious looking on the ice at night in January-February, there are a lot of angler pursuing these critters and that would likely mean a big turn out for a ice-derby event. The first step would be getting someone to organize such an event, which could benefit the reservoir in so many ways. As the guys from bigfishtackle.com noted last year from putting on the Burbot Bash, it takes a lot of time and probably money to host such an event. It won't be an easy task but it is possible.

Just wanted to touch on a few of the many concerns and hope it helps some. Thanks, Ryno

 

[er-e-is]

Ryno, Thanks for a informative response to this post. I think that we all agree that the burbot are a big problem and are here to stay. Control sounds like the only answer. Hopefully someone will organize a annual tournament or 2. As a small business owner, I would donate to and participate in such an event. Is it possible to catch them in cod traps as was mentioned in a previous post and is it legal to do so? Is there a market to sell them and is that legal?

 

[binthere50]

I think I'll agree with Fish on this one...Burbot have to go if the Kokes want to have a chance to survive....They can study this all they want....bottom line is this, get rid of the lings and there will be more Kokes in the Gorge.
Get rid of anything that eats koke eggs, and baby kokes, and you will have more kokes.....if Mother Nature does something in the meantime that reduces Koke populations then so be it, because we all know they would rebound in time, but when predators are eating the spawn, fry, eggs, and baby's...well...then you have a problem amigos......Kill em all Fish!!!

 

[Dorado]

I think I'll agree with Fish on this one...Burbot have to go if the Kokes want to have a chance to survive....They can study this all they want....bottom line is this, get rid of the lings and there will be more Kokes in the Gorge.
Get rid of anything that eats koke eggs, and baby kokes, and you will have more kokes.....if Mother Nature does something in the meantime that reduces Koke populations then so be it, because we all know they would rebound in time, but when predators are eating the spawn, fry, eggs, and baby's...well...then you have a problem amigos......Kill em all Fish!!!

Who is saying that they are going to study anything?

Kill all the burbot you can! Just leave the blame game to the bucket stockers that started this mess.....

 

[binthere50]

Cod traps are a very real option....I have fished commercially in Calif in past
years and know they work...long lines with hundreds of baited hooks on the bottom with floats/buoys would work as well. If it is legal then I would bet a months wages that the Asian Community in Salt Lake, L.A. San Francisco, etc...would pay decent money for fresh or fresh frozen ling...hell it's probably one of their fish anyways!......Somebody check the regs for commercial harvest of Burbot in Wyo-Ut...if it is not legal, I would think they would make some special circumstance for the Gorge for a few fisherman who would do it right...If you ever want to get rid of a species, make it a commercial target....works every time!!......

 

[binthere50]

Your right Dorado...Fish and Game or their biologists are not to blame.
The idiots who put them in the lake are....you are correct. But, they are not the answer either, unless they allow the commercial harvest or make some concession to the fact that this is a problem, and if they allow that, they can help us help the Gorge.....

 

[dbcfr]

A+ for binthere50...Mike is right you find a market for them and they will be gone. The commercial guys would take every last one if there was a profit to be made...
Dave B

 

[binthere50]

Everyone is right on this subject...very good discussion....I've only been to the Gorge once and I already KNOW the value of this Kokanee fishery.
I will contact a friend of mine here on the Calif. Coast whos owns a rather large wholesale fish company, I'll ask him about this and what he thinks of the burbot as a commodity. If you google "commercial harvest burbot" there is some interesting info there....they actually harvest them in the Great Lakes to some degree....we are learning more through this discussion. This is all good stuff now.......Someone who knows how to talk "commercial fishing" needs to contact Wy or Ut Fish and Game to see if anyone there even knows about this scenario...If enough people ask the right questions to the right people, my feeling is something will come of it.
If a guy who lives by the Gorge can spend evenings during the off-season and make some money, I can see no better motivation to control these fish..It makes sense. There MUST be money to be made though....unfortunatly that is the only thing that matters. A few people catching hundreds perhaps thousands of these fish each can make a huge dent in them....if they can make some money doing it, they will do it with gusto and determination.....I know Men...lol.......I'll report my findings with the fish seller I know......keep the think tank going gentlemen....Mike

 

[Stanson]

I think I started something and the commercial fishing sounds good, I'm sure there is a market for fresh Burbot meat they could sell it to fish processing plants and then sell it to the general public.

and were's another idea... all of you professional fishing guide services need to step up to the plate on this one and offer taking kids Burbot fishing. I'm sure the kids would love catching those Burbot (lings) Like I said before the people that beneifit the most from the kokanee fisheriers...needs to get this moving and that is everyone that makes money directly or indirectly from the Kokanee fisheries...

Keep the ideas coming.... teamwork always works... check out these wed addresses
http://www.kutv.com/content/outdoors/story/Burbot-Fish/41yFjeOYgEi58GBgMXCFaw.cspx
http://www.metsastys-kalastus.com/english/fishing/burbot.html
http://gf.state.wy.us/fish/AAC/Burbot/index.asp
SK

 

[SuperD]

all of you professional fishing guide services need to step up to the plate on this one and offer taking kids Burbot fishing.

I had the impression that burbot were only caught in the dark. If true, not real conducive to guide service and kids.

 

[Ryno]

Is it possible to catch them in cod traps as was mentioned in a previous post and is it legal to do so? Is there a market to sell them and is that legal?

I've used them quite a few times. Baited traps are effective for burbot, although I haven't been extremely impressed with the catch rates. As the proclamations read, it looks like you can trapnet non-game fish in Utah, I didn't see a restriction on the size of the trap. In Wyoming you can trapnet fish, but it looks like you need a special license (?). There is a net size restriction too, 12" wide/deep by 36" long which is pretty small.

Not sure what the commercial market would be like. I've read some documents where Canada was trying to develop a market for freshwater cod (burbot) liver oil. Apparently, the Atlantic cod stock is down which was impacting cod liver production. Makes sense, but I'm not sure there is a huge demand for cod liver oil.

All good questions, but it might be better to pick the brains of someone from law enforcement before setting some cod traps in the Gorge.

 

[Ryno]

Get rid of anything that eats koke eggs, and baby kokes, and you will have more kokes.....if Mother Nature does something in the meantime that reduces Koke populations then so be it, because we all know they would rebound in time, but when predators are eating the spawn, fry, eggs, and baby's...well...then you have a problem amigos......Kill em all Fish!!!

No one would disagree with that, but it's important to remember it's not just burbot eating kokes. They've got a lot of predators (see pic). Just like us, it appears everything on the Gorge finds them appetizing!

 

[Kokaholic]

I spoke with Curt. Curt is the Main contact at BFT(Wiperhunter2) who put together the Burbot bash ast year. He is wanting to put this together again. He spoke with represenative from teh Green River Chamber of Commerce who assists in getting the derbys and fishing contests put to getehr in that area. They want to put this thing together to help work on this problem. So, There is something in the works. We need to support this cause. It could be a great outing and oppertunity to go go out and put a little dent in these critters. Ash, get with me, Curt wants to talk with you and pick your brain again on some ideas.

 

[binthere50]

Great going on that!!...I will be there on Tuesday to fish Kokes and maybe Mack's...and I will go for some Burb's for sure.....I tried to contact the fish buyer friend I have, but he was out of town on vacation...I will not forget to follow up on that....